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At The Movies: Maxed Out

By: The Baron

[An occasional series discussing recent movies in theaters or on DVD from an LDS perspective.  Other articles on strictly LDS movies can be found here]

Personal debt is an oft-referenced topic in the Church despite not having an obvious spiritual relationship to the plan of salvation.  One might wonder why avoiding debt is a spiritual issue at all—but if you hear that over half of divorces have ‘financial difficulties’ as a primary factor, then ‘avoiding debt’ turns into ‘making your marriage stronger—almost by default’…and the relationship between debt and the plan of salvation becomes clear. 

(See also D&C 29:34: "Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal…")

The documentary “Maxed Out”--now available on DVD--discusses debt on both a national and a personal level--sharing statistics about national trends, and stories about people deep in debt with seemingly no way out.  "Maxed Out" was created by James Scurlock--not to be confused with Morgan Spurlock of "Super Size Me" fame (although you have to believe a future partnership between the two is fated in the stars to happen someday...)

Here’s my analysis of the documentary and related thoughts on the subject of debt.

First things first: One should realize that “Maxed Out” is NOT an objective documentary.  Like many recent docs, it is written and organized from a ‘liberal/left-wing’ perspective—perhaps not to a Michael-Moore-level of propaganda, but still possessing an unmistakably clear agenda.

Bias in a documentary can be excused as long as it is still accurate. “Maxed Out” is accurate in general terms (and still makes many good, objective points) but glosses over—or skips entirely--a number of important key issues related to debt, which are notable by their absence.   Furthermore, it also has a number of 'propaganda-ish' sequences where viewers are asked to accept the filmmaker’s ideology without providing direct support for it with specific arguments or statistics.  (Indeed, it’s ironic that “Maxed Out” complains on one hand about credit card companies not sharing ‘the whole truth’ to its customers, while quite deliberately not sharing ‘the whole truth’ with viewers either about the true causes of the debt problem in America, or even recent law changes.)

The most obvious way to demonstrate "Maxed Out"'s bias is to do a direct comparison between its view of debt, and how LDS Church lessons usually discuss the subject.

The average General Conference talk on debt (see here or here for examples) has one basic point: avoid debt at all costs. This oft-quoted statement by Elder J. Reuben Clark is relevant:

Interest never sleeps nor sickens nor dies; it never goes to the hospital; it works on Sundays and holidays; it never takes a vacation; it never visits nor travels; it takes no pleasure; it is never laid off work nor discharged from employment; it never works on reduced hours. . . . Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you.

“Maxed Out”, in fact, would agree with this statement completely…the difference is in tone. In a “Fences vs. Ambulances” kind of way, Scurlock's agenda is not to encourage people to avoid debt (although one can read between the lines and still find this lesson) but seemingly to encourage people to ‘forgive’ debt, with the blame for America’s debt problem placed entirely on the lenders—the people and corporations who gave the money to the 'victims'--without even paying lip service to anyone's responsibility to handle money wisely and avoid debt in the first place.

'Personal responsibility' as a solution to debt—or even as a subject at all--is avoided almost entirely in "Maxed Out", leaving one with the impression that credit card debt is something that just randomly ‘happens’ in people's lives one day out of the blue, like developing cancer. 

Many of the personal stories presented by “Maxed Out” are tragic and heart-breaking…but by and large preventable as well, and the documentary avoids exploring personal solutions in lieu of moving blame over to large corporations.

Some of the personal stories shown in the documentary, and their view of the debt problem:

#1:  One woman is shown in tears, lamenting that she can’t pay her bills and will probably lose her house. The camera pans out and we see a quick shot of her house...my wife and I then both remarked that her house was bigger than ours.  Hmmm…

#2:  Two moms share similar stories of their son/daughter going off to college and immediately racking up $12,000+ in credit-card debt.  After both students found themselves being unable to handle the payments, both hung themselves.

The films’ verdict: their deaths are the credit card companies’ fault for giving them so many credit cards in the first place.

Not discussed: the fact that these two students bought $12,000 worth of items and didn’t appear to understand that this was not ‘free money’—it was something they were going to have to pay back in the future. What did they think they were applying for, each of the 12+ times they filled out and sent in a credit card application?

(One of the moms shares her late son’s statement that, “I don’t know how I got into, nor how I can get out of credit card debt…”   Apparently, those credit cards snuck out of his wallet while he was sleeping and went on shopping sprees by themselves.  His mom notes that one of her son’s credit cards was for Neiman Marcus—so we’re not talking ‘necessities of life’, here…)

Scurlock's left-leaning bias is further shown in this segment, as we find out these two moms--spurred on by their children's suicide—helped testify for a bill regarding credit cards, and notes solemnly that they were opposed by the large credit card companies with bottomless pockets. (“The bill never had a chance…” one of them laments.)

What was the bill? A ban on college students receiving credit card applications. (Raise your hand if you believe taking credit cards away from ALL college students because a few of them don’t seem to understand how they work is an appropriate response…)   I can think of a number of reasons why this bill wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) have passed which have nothing to do with credit card companies’ deep pockets.  "Maxed Out" seems to take for granted that this law would have been good, moral policy and doesn't spend any time discussing or defending it further --one suspects Scurlock would feel the same way about banning guns.

The lack of any mention of personal choice is quite stunning.  Suppose, for a moment, we were talking about two 18-year-old college freshmen who died due to drug overdoses.  Usually--and we see this frequently in anti-drug ads now--the parent's main message is to encourage young people to 'stay away from drugs...don't end up like my son/daughter!'  Most surprisingly, neither of the two moms in this segment make *any* statement to the effect that young people need to 'be careful...and stay out of debt!', as debt will follow them forever per Elder Clark's statement above if they let it get a hold of their lives.  Instead, it's all about how it's someone else's fault.

[One note: I realize it is insensitive to ‘speak ill of the dead’ but “Maxed Out” appears to have deliberately chosen victims who committed suicide because of debt for dramatic--and tragic--value, despite the fact that these stories are obviously not representative of the average American’s experience with debt.  Scurlock also may have wished to preemptively head off the ‘personal responsibility’ card by choosing subjects who are no longer around to be second-guessed.   Nevertheless, if Scurlock and these victims’ families are going to use their stories to further an agenda on a national scale, then I believe analysis and criticism of the choices that led to their children's tragic suicides becomes a valid counter-argument.]

#3:  One Iraq War vet and his wife find out they don’t have enough money to pay for their truck, their trailer, and ‘all the other bills’ (their level of credit card debt is never revealed…neither is what kind of truck they own).   Bankruptcy is discussed as ‘the only way out’ (without revealing their finances, of course, we'll never know...)   This segment laments over the change in bankruptcy law in 2005.  And laments that some of the private company employees working in Iraq make a lot more than US soldiers (true, but completely irrelevant...we should note here that "Maxed Out" takes a number of irrelevant pot-shots at Pres.Bush and the Iraq War throughout its running time, further compromising the 'objectiveness' of the documentary).

The 2005 bankruptcy law changes receive a lot of focus in “Maxed Out”—although the film brushes over the actual details of what has changed.  Scurlock presents anecdotal examples of people just trying to get by who ‘need’ bankruptcy as a way out of debt.   And presents sound bytes from Congressmen (all Democrats, naturally) who oppose the bankruptcy legislation for ‘hurting the poor’…without mentioning any specifics as to why this would be so.  We also see a sound-bite of President Bush saying the changes are necessary due to "people abusing the system"--completely true, of course, and the film spends zero time discussing the relative merits of this claim.   Analysis of what percentage of people (poor and otherwise) were abusing the bankruptcy option as a means of getting things they wanted through credit, and then having the debt erased (i.e. whether the law changes were actually justified), is not on "Maxed Out"'s agenda...

[The details of the 2005 bankruptcy law change can be found here.  Basically, a requirement to attend financial counseling before and after bankruptcy has been added, as well as a ‘means test’ for Chapter 7 filings—where all debt is eliminated—instead of Chapter 13, where partial repayment is still required to creditors.  Also, filing bankruptcy no longer immediately stops court orders such as eviction proceedings, or divorces.  “Maxed Out” avoids any mention of specific changes in the law, nor presents any counter-arguments against these seemingly common-sense policies.] 

The implications of “Maxed Out"'s message seem to be condescending to the poor, in fact: 18-year-old college freshmen, for example, are old enough to vote and serve in the military, but (supposedly) are not mature enough to handle personal finance without a babysitter. They ‘can't help’ applying for credit cards when you put applications in their faces, and thus need to be protected from themselves.  Poor Americans (supposedly) just aren't smart enough to understand what 'interest' means, and what responsibilities taking out a loan (for whatever reason) entail.  The young and the poor must be protected from their own poor choices from predatory credit card companies who apparently make you apply for credit cards and buy things with them at gunpoint.

One segment (the first segment, ironically enough) is both effective, and free of the left-wing tilt--showing the direction a more objective documentary could have taken: we meet a man who shows us some of the ‘stupid’ things he bought from TV ads using his credit card, and later learn that his credit card company was engaged in fraudulent and deceptive behavior (exposed in a class-action lawsuit in 2000).

This segment works because it mentions--the only one that does--that people are using their credit cards for a variety of things, many of which are not related to day-to-day survival.   And, more importantly, it reveals actual illegal and unethical behavior by that particular credit-card company.  

The other segments of the documentary, however, resort to criticizing credit card companies for behavior that’s happens to be both legal AND ethical. (I mean, how DARE those large corporations try to collect money that’s owed to them by parties who willingly agreed to the transaction?  That's like signing a year-long cell phone contract and then complaining that 'large corporations' are mercilessly making you pay fees every month!)

Only the first segment actually shows a credit card company participating in illegal and immoral behavior (and one assumes this segment was placed first, in part so the other companies can become 'tainted' by association in the eyes of the audience throughout the rest of the film, even if illegal behavior by the rest of them is never directly stated).  

Much of the talk about how profitable the business of debt is to those large corporations--and how they don't really care in terms of the bottom line what applicants' income is, or whether they pay their debts on time or not--is, in fact, beside the point in many respects.  Credit card companies have a right to loan money to whomever they want.  They have a right to collect that money afterwards, including interest.  They have the right to charge fees for late payments.  We have the right not to borrow money from them if we choose.  Or, if we do, we have the right to expect them to live up to the terms of the contract, just as they expect us to live up to ours.  We do NOT have the right to borrow money, not pay, and then either complain that the lenders are treating us as if we owe them something, and/or wish for some magic process that will sweep our debts away.

"Maxed Out" provides very scant evidence that credit card companies are not, in fact, living up to their part of the bargain--it's after the lendee's can't live up to their part of the bargain that all of a sudden those companies are 'evil' for...just wanting their money.  Does anyone see a problem with this logic?

The anti-credit card company agenda of "Maxed Out" is clear, but what Scurlock believes we should DO about credit and debt in America is not: would the poor really be better off with LESS access to credit—if credit cards, pawn shops and check-cashing stores were blocked off to them?  This may avoid some of the personal situations shown in the film, but at the expense of creating a whole host of other problems where many struggling families have NO means whatsoever to pay for emergency expenses.

[Ironically, in decades past it was poor families having too LITTLE access to credit that was shown to be a major factor in remaining in poverty.  One of the hot trends in developing countries now is 'microcredit'—small loans to people in third-world countries (see discussion here), shown to be helpful for people--particularly women--in rising out of poverty.   Which creates an interesting contradiction if we are to believe that giving poor people greater access to loans and debt is actually worse for them then not allowing them to get into debt at all.]

I don’t believe Scurlock can make the case (nor, perhaps, was he trying to) that more opportunities for credit is worse for the poor than less, but if true, doesn't that imply that companies who loan money (and collect money) legally are part of the solution to poverty, instead of part of the problem?  After all, MOST people who take out loans and use credit cards from those same ‘evil’ corporations are able to handle their debts without resorting to bankruptcy and/or suicide.

In the Church, we discuss the laws of 'justice' and 'mercy' frequently.  Both laws, from an eternal perspective, are equally imporant--one cannot ‘rob’ the other (see Alma 42).  The ideas espoused by “Maxed Out” about easy bankruptcy—ironically presented as “social justice”—in fact are the epitome of 'mercy-only' policies.  Like the famous Church video about justice and mercy, where the person who owes a great debt asks his debtor if he believes in mercy, who replies: "Yes...but mercy is so one-sided.  It serves only you." 

Eliminating the option of bankruptcy would be bad policy--a case of justice robbing mercy.  But why should justice—in terms of allowing people to avoid the natural consequences of their actions—be discarded entirely in terms of financial policy? Adding restrictions and extra filing requirements is not inherently 'unmerciful', but seeks to balance the two--and if Scurlock has specific reasons for thinking bankruptcy changes are bad law (rather than just more 'inconvenient' for some than they used to be), that reasoning is absent from his documentary.

On a spiritual level, the Church has always fought against the tendency to 'sin now...and repent later'--an obvious spiritual parallel to credit card debt.   While the Atonement (filing for bankruptcy, in this parallel) allows those debts to be forgiven, the plan of salvation is still designed in terms of stewardship and responsibility.   The Atonement is not a 'get out of jail free' card allowing mankind to have fun first and then abandon their 'debts' later without consequence.   A wise financial system does the same: allowing both justice and mercy to be served.  "Maxed Out's" view of personal debt acknowledges the need for the latter, but ignores the former.

Print | posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:00 AM | Filed Under [ The Baron ]

Comments:

#1: Eric Nielson

A very thorough review, man.

I think I will avoid this film.

In a way I think that credit card debt for some brings the idea of getting something for nothing. My younger children sometimes think that. Hopefully they will learn.

I had an economics teacher in High School tell the class to use credit cards for convenience, not for credit. She was pretty firm. I have always remembered this, and think it is among the best pieces of advice I have ever received.
9/27/2007 9:58 AM

#2: Belladonna

I'm just curious - what are your views on the "Money Tree" businesses that seem to be cropping up on nearly every corner just like Starbucks.

I cringe at the thought of the number of people who are getting themselves hooked into the "Payday loan" cycle, forever robbing Peter to pay Paul.

YES, the lender has the right to lend and it is the BORROWER'S responsibility to make prudent choices.

Still - I blame both drug DEALERS and drug USERS for addiction. Granted, that's different because the product is against the law. But I think the relationship is much the same.

Teaching people the principle of delayed gratification and sensible resource management is so important - on a far wider scale than merely financial. Are you familiar with the Marshmallow experiments on this issue?
9/27/2007 10:20 AM

#3: Sue

On the other hand, once someone is maxed out, they jack up the interest rates, pile on the over-the-limit fees, and basically make it almost impossible to get out, even if the borrower DOES commit to responsible fiscal living... Isn't that the point of the film? Not that the borrowers weren't responsible for their debt, but that once they have it, the CC companies make it almost impossible to get out of it? I'm not stating, just asking - have not seen the film.
9/27/2007 7:40 PM

#4: Belladonna

Another issue - why is it that CAR INSURANCE RATES are higher for people with poor credit histories than for people with good credit? The people who can afford it the least are getting gouged even more. That just seems totally unfair to me. Shouldn't car insurance rates be based on your driving record and the rate of accidents in the region where you live? What does what you owe have to do with it??
9/27/2007 11:44 PM

#5: The Baron

Credit card companies are not our 'friends'--that much should be clear (and I hope the article isn't interpreted to say otherwise) They are for-profit companies that provide a service--they loan you money and set the terms for how and when it is to be paid back. If those terms are known (or could have been known) to customers before they sign up, and followed through on by the companies themselves, then there's nothing immoral or unethical about it. YOU agreed to the transaction, and if the terms of the transaction are 'unfair' in some way, that needs to be taken into account before making the agreement in the first place.

If I sell a book for $25 to a guy, who later finds out he could have bought it online for $15 somewhere else, that doesn't mean I'm being unethical (even if I knew about the $15 price tag somewhere else beforehand). I provided a product for a given price, he agreed to buy it for that price--it's a completely legitimate transaction.

Having never been 'maxed out', I don't know how interest rates change, but I'll bet dollars to donuts virtually every credit card company has their policy stated clearly in the public record, where customers considering large purchases on their credit cards can find out what the result would be in terms of interest. They won't check, of course--and the credit card companies know this--but that still doesn't mean they're doing something inherently under-handed.
9/28/2007 10:11 AM

#6: Seth R.

As a bankruptcy attorney, I have heard a lot about this movie, but I have yet to see it. I don't doubt it's probably Michael Moore style propaganda. It did seem to give that impression to me.

That said, Baron's post smacks too much of condescending "you're in debt because you're stupid - unlike financially capable people like me." I understand that he's not alone in this. I deal with this prejudice every day when I field client phone calls. I also realize that much of the rhetoric we hear at church is very unsympathetic to debtors.

Most of my clients are utterly depressed and discouraged. There is a lot of self-loathing and feeling of failure going on. Most of them desperately want to pay off their debts and a lot of them have done drastic and financially destructive things to themselves like selling off their houses, depleting their retirement investments, and a host of other things that did nothing to put a dent in their skyrocketing interest, but simply ensured that they really would have no financial future by the time they got to my office.

Keep in mind, that a lot of people you know have ended up in bankruptcy. More children in America will experience their parents going through a bankruptcy than will experience them going through a divorce. Also keep in mind that these people are very ashamed of having gone through bankruptcy. They don't talk about the experience to their friends. Neither do they advocate for other people who are in the same boat they were a few years ago. This gives the false impression to those who haven't filed for bankruptcy that the bankrupt are some sort of strange "other." Something unrecognizable among our highly conscientious and admirable friends and associates. This is pure myth.

Another myth is that this is primarily about the financially irresponsible. Sure, I see some bad financial choices, but they really are not obvious ones. In fact they are financial mistakes that half the readership of this blog would probably make themselves if given the chance. I simply have not seen an epidemic of "irresponsible credit card borrowing." When I see credit card debt, it is almost never for luxury items. My clients are typically spending 20 dollars a month on "entertainment stuff." That's not irresponsible. That's avoiding insanity. You want to know what the credit card bills are for? Here's what I'm seeing:

-Medical bills
-Keeping the heat on
-groceries
-Paying off that bill collector who has been calling them every night at 2 AM and swearing at them and threatening to throw them in jail.

Oh the financial irresponsibility!

My experience is that almost every bankruptcy involves credit card debt, often a LOT. But it's usually for necessities and not luxuries. It's the desperate lasts gasp of a doomed household trying to avoid the final disgrace of bankruptcy in hopes that things will somehow work out soon.

Furthermore, you want to know the age bracket seeing the highest percentage growth in bankruptcy filings over the last ten years?

The age 55 and up bracket, and that's where at least half of my clients are coming from. Kind of doesn't jive with the stereotype of the spendthrift college student does it?

Here are the most common things that trigger financial insolvency:

1. Job loss
2. Medical bills
3. Divorce
4. Predatory lending practices
5. Financial illiteracy

I don't see "buying a new home theater" in there. And guess what? None of my clients have a lot of nice stuff either.
10/1/2007 1:35 PM

#7: Seth R.

"Having never been 'maxed out', I don't know how interest rates change, but I'll bet dollars to donuts virtually every credit card company has their policy stated clearly in the public record, where customers considering large purchases on their credit cards can find out what the result would be in terms of interest. They won't check, of course--and the credit card companies know this--but that still doesn't mean they're doing something inherently under-handed."

Do you have any idea what you are talking about here?

I've seen dozens of credit card agreements. I don't understand them. My clients don't understand them. And I bet you don't understand them either. Most of us get the basics about credit. We know there's an interest rate. We know that you can get a penalty interest rate if you're late on payments. Right?

Did you know that if you borrow $2,000 in February, pay off $500 in March and then $500 in April, your interest rate for the next bill will not be based on $1,000 that you still owe, but the entire $2,000 you originally borrowed.

You didn't? Well, don't feel too bad. Practically no one else in America knows this either. It came up in a recent Senate hearing a couple months ago. Not even financial planners and experts have a good handle on how the credit industry assesses fees.

And your credit rating? Well, even less people understand that brand of black magic. Nobody knows for sure how your credit rating is calculated aside from some general guidelines. What they also don't tell you is that some mortgage lenders, even major banks don't factor in certain favorable inputs in some borrowers' credit histories. They do this deliberately to force borrowers into higher interest rate loans or even those dreaded adjustable rate mortgages.

This just isn't about "practice common sense and you'll be fine." The industry is predatory and has had a free pass from Congress for the last decade. There simply isn't much regulation at all protecting you and your family. If Visa or Wells Fargo want to hide the ball from you, they are allowed to do it.
10/1/2007 1:50 PM

#8: The Baron

This is the problem using 'anecdotal evidence' to prove anything--for every person you can find who bought only 'necessities' with credit cards, I can find someone who bought a flat-screen plasma TV. For every person who filed for bankrupcy for being truly 'the only way out', I can find someone who files for bankruptcy and mentions openly in our ward's Sunday School class all the tricks he used on how to 'hide' assets so he could keep things he bought while getting away with debt elimination.

My point is: if "Maxed Out" was at all confident that the "personal responsibility" angle would play out in favor of the 'victims' (in other words, if detailed financial analysis and statistics would reveal that the cause of the average person's credit card debt was really necessities rather than luxuries as Seth has implied) then why avoid the subject? Why not tell the stories of people in debt, and then mention specific as to what is was they bought that put them in debt in the first place? Those two college students with $12,000 in debt, for example, there's NO mention by Scurlock or their moms that it was for tuition, food, and other 'survival items' and no financial details are shared about the other personal stories either. If their debt was truly for 'necessities for survival' then Scurlock had nothing to lose by stating so--surely he knew the 'personal responsibility' card would be played sometime. Why not head it off, if, in fact, the facts and the reality of credit card debt were in his favor? The fact that he avoids the subject entirely is suspicious.

Anecdotes are not meaningful in and of themselves--there's a big difference between individual stories of victims of debt that genuinely represent the statistical reality, and there's left-wing 'shell games' where the story of the one is emphasized with the hope that no one notices or asks about the nine other people in the same situation with more morally culpable stories. (see: abortion)

I read the article Seth mentions about recent complaints about credit card companies (and note: these were not part of "Maxed Out"'s content)--if they're true, then score one against those companies in the 'under-handed' category. Credit card companies are not your friends, they exist to make money. Doesn't change the fact that society (and the poor) would not be better off if they didn't exist, and that ignoring and discouraging personal responsibility in terms of spending--even at the expense of appearing 'hard-hearted'--will only make the debt problem worse...
10/1/2007 2:30 PM

#9: Seth R.

Baron,

I honestly don't know how we as a society could emphasize personal responsibility with money more than we do.

You got any ideas?
10/1/2007 2:55 PM

#10: The Baron

?

*Does* society emphasize personal responsibility with money? Credit card companies (obviously) do not encourage financial responsibility, neither do most merchants (who emphasize "No Money Down", or "No payments/interest until 2008!" to make the sale NOW instead of after serious reflection)

As with most things, there is the 'carrot' and the 'stick' approach. Higher interest rates for savings and investments might be a 'carrot' to save instead of spend...but that would probably only benefit the people who are already saving, not discourage the free spenders. And the 'stick' approach (punish those who spend irresponsibly even more in order to discourage it) is lacking in 'mercy' even to 'arch-conservatives' like me.

So, no, I don't have any great ideas, although it would be a start if documentaries on debt at least mentioned the idea that financial responsibility has benefits and free spending of someone else's money that you'll have to figure out how to pay back later has drawbacks. We at least try to dissuade people from drugs, why treat debt differently?

10/1/2007 3:48 PM

#11: Seth R.

Baron, I guess I'm more just frustrated at how little people know about this area, and yet for all that, everyone sure-shooting has a VERY strong opinion on the subject. My clients are largely good and honorable people, and they don't deserve the stereotypes that get dumped on them by almost every quarter of society.

Perhaps you feel Maxed Out was too one-sided in its message. I'd agree. But I'd also note that it is compensating for centuries of societal prejudice. Consider this a bit of a backlash against a self-righteous and individualistic culture that essentially loathes and despises anyone who "can't handle their money."

By the way, if I recall correctly, the FBI estimates that somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% of bankruptcies have some sort of fraud involved. That's fraud under a statutory definition though, and I'm not sure that we'd consider everyone in that category to be willfully engaging in wrongdoing. As for the anecdote about the guy in Sunday School, I'd be kind of interested in hearing what he actually said.
10/1/2007 4:13 PM

#12: Belladonna

I'm utterly intrigued by this dialogue. My experience with this issue comes from having worked as executive director for a non-profit social service agency serving the indigent and working poor. I got to know A LOT of homeless people in that job. I saw the whole gambit from spoiled girls who wanted acrylic nails, fancy hair styles and cell phones and still expected my agency to pay their light bill to disabled veterans who used their credit cards to pay for food and blankets (not to mention everything inbetween.) I see some truth in both extremes.

People ARE sometimes irresponsible. However, I still concur with Seth - lending companies are too often predatory and misleading.

Also, how people who "have never been maxed out" treat and talk about people in financial crisis matters just as much as how people who have strong testimonies treat and talk about those who do not know Christ. Judging/blaming people for where they are at simply is not useful in my book.

We ALL make stupid choices in some area of our life - that's why the Savior gave us repentence. Unfortunately, for some who get in over their heads financially, fiscal forgiveness can be hard to find.

10/1/2007 6:27 PM

#13: John Mansfield

Here's an my anecdote that supports Seth point about credit card agreements being opaque. We had a cash flow issue one month, considered our options (such as cashing in a CD early and incurring a small penalty), and decided that paying the minimum on our credit card and letting the balance roll over to the next month would be the cheapest thing to do. It was the first time we had ever not paid off the entire balance on a credit card, and the next month we paid it all off, including the small amount of interest as we had planned.

The month after that, however, there were further charges that I never did fully understand. By carrying a balance from one month to the next, apparently interest started accruing on all purchases from the date of purchase and at an interest rate that was much higher than it had been the month before. The only way we could sort it all out and quit seeing interest charges was to quit using the card completely for a couple of months.

On the religious side, scriptural reproaches of creditors are a lot more plentiful then rebukes directed to debtors.
10/2/2007 9:35 AM

#14: The Baron

Judging/blaming people for where they are at simply is not useful in my book.


But, just like in Paradox's recent post on youth, if you go about being 'non-judgmental' about everything, problems just get worse, because people get away with destructive behavior without anyone challenging them on it.

Obviously, in the entire population there are X number of people whose financial situation is not their fault...and Y number of people where it is (and different stages in between). You don't want to treat X's as if they were Y's...but you can't just treat Y's as if they were X's either. If so, why in the world would the Y's ever change...you've more or less 'admitted' that it's not their fault. And if the Y group slowly gets bigger and bigger, then what? The Atonement is not a 'free pass' to sin, personal growth and responsibility are an essential part of the plan of salvation...and part of that is the responsibility to change when your choices do not line up with the path to success and happiness.

You always need justice and mercy...and you can't have a productive conversation on societal problems without some acknowledgment that personal spending habits is part of the problem of personal debt...
10/2/2007 10:28 AM

#15: Seth R.

John, I wish I had a link to that Senate hearing. They discussed something similar to this. I couldn't understand it, and the Senator himself had a hard time sorting it out. But the short of it is that the credit card essentially never lets you go once it has you, and it pulls every string, loophole, and technicality to do it. Lax disclosure laws also mean that the credit card company isn't even required to keep you informed of a lot of things. I have clients who are simply utterly bewildered at how their debt spiraled out of control so badly. You've got people owing paying and owing ten times what they originally owed on the debt in as short as a year out from borrowing. You just can't account for that kind of inflation on debtor negligence alone. Something is seriously wrong with the system.

I appreciate the Mormon (and American) impulse toward self-reliance. But our society has become overwhelmingly technical, specialized, and complex in the past twenty years. Self-reliance today means mastery of a dizzying array of specialized financial, social, practical, and theoretical knowledge. And even then you can screw up badly. I know one couple in their 50s who lost over $10,000 in stock value during the last downturn. And they had a professional accountant and graduate degrees and everything. Self-reliance today in America is largely a figment of the imagination. It doesn't exist. And I wish people would start acknowledging that fact more, both at church and in government. The brutal fact is that no one person has the know-how to be really self-reliant today. It's possible to know enough to get by after a fashion, but what about those with only a high school education, or those who have never had any experience managing money? Shall we simply throw them to the wolves?

That's essentially what every college campus that allows credit card kiosks to set up during freshman orientation does. The administrations should lose their jobs for that kind of exploitation of their financially vulnerable students.

Regulation is not just a political ideology, it is a vital necessity in a hyper-specialized and technical society. We can't continue to function in a manner that is beneficial to the national economy if there is no regulatory security being provided. All that time that people have to waste covering their butts, or dealing with the financial fallout is time that they are not contributing usefully to society. We are all being horribly damaged by this, and the whole system is ultimately unsupportable. The subprime market mess may sort itself out temporarily or it might not. But there is a chronic problem with the national economy and it's only a matter of time before it implodes.
10/2/2007 10:43 AM

#16: Belladonna

Baron, I think there is a mighty big difference between ACKNOWLEDGING ERROR and judging. I would totally agree that wrong doing, whether it be moral or fiscal, needs to be tackled boldly and head on with no beating around the bush. But I don't think that needs to be done in a judgmental manner.

I have yet to meet anyone in error who was motivated to change their wicked ways, either from breaking the commandments or bungling in budget matters, by having someone treat them in a demeaning, condescending or blaming manner. I think people are most motivated to change when they are loved and respected, and then challenged with the truth of the situation.

When I was doing poverty work one of my biggest challenges to cope with was the attitudes of some of my agency volunteers and donors toward "those people" who had allowed their lives to get into such a sorry state.

Are some people in financial trouble because they made stupid choices ? YES. But I don't think they should be treated substantially differently from how we treat someone who is in trouble beause they lost their home in a housefire. STUFF HAPPENS. Sometimes we contribute to that. I think we are all served by honoring and respecting one another, acknowledging that every single one of us makes mistakes and never putting ourselves as superior to someone else just because we haven't happened to make THAT particular mistake. Should they be given clear, direct council on how to change, which includes personal responsibility? YES. But it can be done in a manner of council and support that does not include blame.

In addition to poverty work, I also had a job for a while doing HIV/AIDS intervention. Some of the people my agency served got AIDS from cicrcumstances beyond their control - (unfaithful spouse, medical mistakes, etc.) Some got AIDS from being IV drug users or having sex with people they should not have been with. What sort of services we gave them once they came to us were in NO WAY different. I believe that responding to people who are in financial catastrophe should be much the same. It doesn't matter what brought them to that point. That is where they are at. So we deal with how to clean it up and teach them how to avoid future problems.

I have zero problem paying tithing. I really struggle with OTHER commandments. I have zero credit card debt and a stellar credit rating. But I am lousy at keeping track of records I should and I'm sure I waste money in several substantial ways. We all have different strengths and different challenges.

One of the down sides of a culture that values self reliance and material success is that there is a lot of blame dished out to those who never get there, and sometime even more directed at those who make it big and then fall from grace by making some mistakes. I find that troubling.
10/2/2007 11:28 AM

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